S1 E1: Jackson Mumey

The premiere episode of the podcast is out. Join me as I welcome Jackson Mumey, CEO of Celebration Bar Review and long time friend to the podcast.


Matt Chapman: [00:00:00] welcome to cybersecurity with Matt Chapman. I have Jackson. Mumey a very long time friend looking forward to having a quick conversation with him. And this is season one, episode one. So Jackson, thank you for.

Jackson Mumey: Wow. There's no pressure there at all. Is there none? Not

Matt Chapman: at all.

Jackson Mumey: I am happy to be here,

Matt Chapman: so, I mean, starting out, just like we've been friends for what, like.

20 years, somewhere in there.

Jackson Mumey: I think it's been about 25 years. You first came into my life through a friend neutral friend. I was looking, uh, moving to this new community that Walt Disney corporation, that bill called celebration for. Right outside of the magic kingdom. And we had a business preparing law students to take their bar examinations.

And historically [00:01:00] that business had always been done in person. You went to a hotel room and your lecture for seven weeks and it was brutal. It was a very difficult way to do it. And my wife, Sarah, who is really the brains behind our operations. Okay. That's what it is. Um, Sarah said, you know, I'm really, I'm sick of you being on the road.

Why don't we find a way to do this as home study? And I said, home study, I don't know what that means. She said, well, we'll do audio cassettes and we'll print up books actually to print them. We photocopied them, which was quite an experience and, um, send them out to people. So we did that for a few years, and then we were making this move to this new high-tech community of celebration, Florida.

And a friend of ours who was in, uh, it for Disney. Uh, I went to him and I said, look, I think we could do something really interesting here. Maybe we could put some of our, uh, materials and sell on this thing that they're calling the internet. And he laughed at me and he said, I only know one [00:02:00] guy in the community who's even beginning to work with that.

His name was match. So, as you recall, I contacted you. And I said, um, well, we're, we're moving into a house. We're putting a, uh, office in our garage apartment. And we've heard that there's this thing called the internet and you need something called a T1.

Matt Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. Cause at the time, um, you know, coming from that background that I had an ISP and so forth, um, mean I was doing network work all the time.

And one of the things that was interesting for the conversation with. I had done some T ones for businesses by then. But most, most people, even in the businesses that were SMB right. Were doing like ISD in lines. Right. So when that was like, you're like, that's not enough. I'm like, oh, okay. So you want to T1, this should be fun.

So I reached out to the contact I had, which will remain nameless to get, uh, the, um, the setup for you guys, which was the same contact I was using for some of the places I was handling on. [00:03:00] And he's like, you're going to run a T1 to the house. I'm like, yes. He goes, well, we have access to the street. If that's okay, then it's, you know, it's not gonna be cheap.

And then the, the other part of that was looking at your house and going, okay, this place you're building up above the garage is going to be like business slash entertainment room. And, uh, I just remember I kind of snowballing from, okay, so we want to do this. And then you're like, I also want to do a nice gaming slash theater slash and I'm like, I have a guy for that.

So it was this, this continuing. Yeah. I agree

Jackson Mumey: with snowball, right. We actually installed with your help, the first T1 in celebration and the first one, literally for a resident. Uh, in the Metro Orlando area. And I remember it looked like a Muppet movie. There were six guys standing around a hole in the backyard, staring at it for a couple of hours.

My wife went out and she said, what are you guys doing? And they said, well, we've never actually seen one of these lines here before. And we're trying to figure out how we get it from here to your house, which was the first time I heard the words, the last. And it [00:04:00] became a really big issue and you helped solve that problem.

And we, we actually ran conduit all over the place. It wasn't, it was a wild, wild setup, but we made it work.

Matt Chapman: Um, fiber, if I remember correctly from the first floor through conduit. So the connection was to your laundry. And then we ran conduit with fiber optic in it, from there to the upstairs where we gave you a Dell server, which was how we were going to transpose the business and achieve the website would be local.

You wouldn't have to do any of that stuff. And I remember sitting with you in the living room though, you and your kids, which are now. Megan's a big part of the business now. And it was, which is funny when I, when I see you guys do a podcast together now, I'm like, wow. I remember when she was like tiny, you know, it makes me, makes the gray make more sense now.


Jackson Mumey: yeah, my daughter, Megan is actually my podcast. Co-host on our podcast called the extra mile for bar exam takers. So yeah. So we've come a long way from there. Right. But we knew back then math. We've had a [00:05:00] greater need for data and securing the data than most people, because it was proprietary. It was, we had thousands of hours of lectures.

These are all audio lectures at that time today, obviously it's video. It's a lot more things, but we knew that given the scope of what we were doing, we were teaching in 45 states. And we just couldn't sit on somebody else's server there wasn't virtual servers there. I mean, you have to literally have a box somewhere.

And so we said, well, we'll get our own box. Right. And, um, little, did we know how complicated that would be, but it became really a, an important piece of what we did. And then if I jumped ahead just a few years, we, uh, we were here in celebration. We decided to build a second home in the community called I almost

Matt Chapman: forgot about that.

That was.

Jackson Mumey: Yeah, to see more about, and we decided that we were going to put our offices. We, we, uh, uh, purchased a separate building for our offices up in seaside, on the Florida [00:06:00] panhandle. And we had to move the box. I mean, this is, this is not crazy. That's I mean, we're going back into the old days now, more than 20 years ago.

And we had to physically move the box from celebration to. Right. And so Matt, you came, uh, at one night, uh, late at night, locked here, drove all night to see site installed the box up there, give him the same thing, running the T1 and all of that. Got it installed and drove back. And he goes, I was like, And I said, how long have you gone without sleep?

And you said, well, it's only like 32 hours or something. I was like, yeah,

Matt Chapman: I do remember that. Cause that was before we co-located it. Right. So after that, and that was a beautiful facility, by the way, it was very different. I was like, where is this place? I kept turning going, like, I don't know where I'm at.

This is, there was no, you know, Google maps on your phone at the time. So it was just trying to.

Jackson Mumey: It's out in the middle of nowhere, right? Yeah. And it was, it was pretty crazy, but, but we were building and growing and expanding and we knew that we needed to have this [00:07:00] continuing capacity to grow. Um, but as we're growing, we're also beginning to fight this challenge of, um, intellectual property protection.

Right. This becomes a fairly big issue for us because it's a, uh, we're in an industry with a. A barrier to entry.

Matt Chapman: Well, it was a big, it was a big conversation in the very beginning, too, right. Because I remember sitting in the, in your room and you're like, here's what we have. This is even before the house got the team.

And he was like, here's what we have. And you showed me the books. Right. And you showed me the cassettes that went out to students. And I was like, okay. And your, your thing was like, I'm going to con I'm converting the cassettes to MP3s. How do we, how do we make it to where they're not as copyable? Because the premise was old, school was harder, harder to copy a new school was going to be very easy to copy going forward and just distribute everywhere.

And that was a big.

Jackson Mumey: There's a huge worry. And so when apple came along with something called an iPod, do you remember? I pumped through the route. We were the first company. We were the first company to go out with [00:08:00] audio cassettes in our industry within the first, uh, to go to walk before MP3s, but we created those files and we put them on iPods and we purchased the iPods, loaded them up with all of our lectures, sent the iPods off the students and they were numbered and registered.

And then they'd have to return the iPods to. And the beauty of the iPod back then was that you couldn't easily take files off of the iPod and put it on your computer. And remember, people didn't have the kind of storage capacity to put literally, you know, gigabytes of data back then onto their own computers.

We were able to control the use of our lectures by those iPods. And as apple kept coming up with more iterations of the iPod we'd upgrade and upgrade and upgrade. But I was literally getting 40 or 50 iPods a day delivered from apple to our office up at Seesaw. Right. Cause there's no apple store. You know, a thousand miles or less probably.

And, um, it, it really became a big business for us. We had a person [00:09:00] full-time who did nothing, but load iPods, check them in, check them out, send them back out. So we're still, you know, so we're trying to protect our data this way. Right. And now we're getting rid of. Thousands and thousands of audio cassettes.

And we had to take duplicators. You remember everywhere, man, that was crazy. And that we had taken our books and put them into digital form. But now what we were doing is we were literally printing the books, using Xerox printers, nice sweet printers, three hole punch paper, putting them in binders, putting a label on it, assembling the books, putting the iPod in the package with it and shipping it out.

So we have this whole shipping department and, and. Compliance department, but it was all built around the idea that we didn't want our material out in the wild. So you had to return everything back to us after your bar exam. And that went on for many years through many iterations up until I think about the point that apple introduced its first iPad.

You remember that at that point. And then we decided to take and go [00:10:00] to the iPad, but now to take our digital files and put them on the. And everyone was like, oh man, that's crazy. I mean, you just can't do that. We said, well, no, we'll send out the iPad. And now we're controlling our product because now it's on the iPad and we've got the code to the iPad.

The student didn't have the ability to unlock the iPad. Um, so we had all of our books and people's. We had all of our files still as audio files. Cause again, it would've been way too much data for those first iPads, your video, and we're sending you not just the iPad. So now we've eliminated the book printing and the cassette printing.

And so now we're just in the iPad business and now every day I'm getting. 20 30, 40 iPads delivered to me and we have to load them up and get them out the door. So this was always a major concern of ours to, to continue to control the data. And you were working with us and helping us figure out how to do it.

And we were talking to the people at apple corporately and they were fascinated. They just, they couldn't get over the fact that we were doing all this on an iPad. And so they flew some [00:11:00] people out from California and they met with me and. Holy crap. What are you doing here?

Matt Chapman: I mean, they were on the radar cause you were getting so many shipments, you know, you were more separate as in a regular store would nowadays.

Jackson Mumey: Yeah, absolutely. And so it was pretty crazy at that point, but we also knew that this was not a long-term solution. Right. You just can't keep handing you. Hardware has got limitations, I think, no matter what you're doing. And so we began to noodle around and you came to me and said, I think we're ready to make the jump to putting your course into the internet itself as a.

Set up and I didn't really understand the specifics, but you, you kept talking about these imaginary boxes, these virtual boxes that were out there. Yeah. The restaurant really guys really sophisticated. Um, but, but I didn't understand it, but I trusted you after all those years, I just knew that you were going to have a solution and you did, and maybe you want to talk about that.[00:12:00]

Matt Chapman: Well, I mean, we went through WordPress, right originally when we were in the, when it was running off of the server in the house, it was, uh, I S uh, probably like four or five back then from Microsoft. And it, um, you know, it had a streaming server behind it, but it had to be our TSP and it was a real pain in the butt to manage.

And the, the, the fi it was over the T1. So when we finally got past the days of. I would say we stepped first into when we actually built a server of our own, and I put it in a co-location facility and cause send me, which is still around and a very good one. And ironically ran it on an apple X serve. And for those of you that are too young to know what that is, apple doesn't make them any more, but they were nice servers, very reliable and, um, very fast.

But we use the QuickTime streaming service for awhile to take those files and stream them that. So in that, in that sense, it was a little harder for people to copy the information. Cause it was streamed only, right? Yeah. And [00:13:00] people are getting used to that at the time because that's when apple was streaming their keynotes and starting to at least.

So you could see some of that information and you could see the, if you had quick time, you were already using it. So a lot of those things were in place, but the eventual iteration was the next jump, which was, let's not, co-locate a server. Let's go to Amazon use AWS web services. Stand up an ECE two instance for those of you listening at home.

And then we have, you know, WordPress running with, uh we've. We tried so many iterations of different things to handle groups. We had some, uh, hacks that I did that made group memberships work. So they were in separate courses and that was how we protected this stuff from there. But then you go into a different issue.

You're not just protecting. Other people from getting to the data. Now we're responsible for the whole shared responsibility model of I've got to actually protect this server. I have to protect all the plugins that are running. Everything was running as far as the WordPress side or whatever we were using at the time.

But, um, and then that jumped [00:14:00] into let's do a CDN CloudFront CDN. So it didn't matter where you were if you were, if you were in California, but, but taking the courses for Florida, the files. Available on a content delivery network from Amazon to allow you to get that far more local to you in your state, even though you weren't in that state.

So it was a faster experience for you. So we, we started moving towards situations where it was better overall as an experience, but also maintain the security on the backend through a combination of AWS security and the local security of the server.

Jackson Mumey: Yeah. And the other thing I want to add is about this point, we started deciding that we wanted to have video.

That meant the bandwidth went crazy. I mean, a typical course, we, we S we sell many different courses for different bar exam jurisdictions, and a typical course would have more than 150 hours of lecture, which meant 150 hours of video. And I remember the first time we went to a company and said we had that much and they just laughed.

They said, you [00:15:00] know, it's a cost. Uh, hundreds of thousands of dollars a month for us to host it. And we were like, well, we're not doing that. And so we stayed away from it until the economies of scale had come down sufficiently that we could do it. And so when we started making that transition, uh, it meant a couple of things.

One is we have recorded a lot of. So in the early days, we just had a cloud loop going on

Matt Chapman: at the beginning with some music, and then you just play the audio over it.

Jackson Mumey: What else were we going to do? But we, we started putting together the videos, but we really. There is a ton of content here. I mean a ton of content.

And now as videos, frankly, these became a whole lot more interesting to people and we were more worried about theft than we have been before, because now there was more capacity and you could, you were more tools where you could grab somebody's video and pull up. And we were trying to figure out where do we put it?

So we've, we've recorded up to YouTube, uh, lock it off as private so that you couldn't find it [00:16:00] and then use that YouTube code and then, and then put it up that way. So that was before we got it onto the server itself. That's really what we were doing is taking that and putting it on YouTube and making links there.

And then hoping that YouTube held up and could support us and do all the things that they were doing. Of course, that gets challenging because YouTube likes to then send you to cat videos and things after each one or run pre-roll and so on. So we, we started experimenting some more and we now have a pretty robust.

Uh, site and, and capacity and people, Matt had worked out the silo. So a California student wasn't seen a Florida course and so on, but we have basically MacGyvered an entire system. I mean, we got some weird plugins and things that we were doing that if Matt and this was a true story and that was on vacation in

Matt Chapman: Europe, I think, is that where [00:17:00] I was.

If it's a story. I think you're going to tell I was actually in Alaska, on a cruise ship

Jackson Mumey: without internet. Right. I mean, basically without even,

Matt Chapman: you know, for the most part. Yeah.

Jackson Mumey: And so one of the things you have to understand about my relationship with Matt over 25 years is that the, we have one overriding phrase, which is Jackson.

Don't break it. And, and I am one of those guys. That's constantly trying to figure out something. Bright shiny objects attract me. And we've innovated. I moved on a ton of innovation on salt. That's one

Matt Chapman: of the big reasons why though, you know, I mean me delving into this podcast and you think I'd have done this years ago, but I'm delving into this a lot because, you know, I love podcasts for one thing, but I figured I have a lot of people that I can talk to that I have relationships with over the, you know, couple of triple decades that I've been in it.

You know, you're doing it and you're having a good time with it, but [00:18:00] at least I think you are speaking. Like I S I told you I was putting my finger in the water there, and you're like, well, let me show you some things we can look at that are pretty cool. So here's some, here's some services you can look at.

So, yeah. And

Jackson Mumey: so, so I'd like to break things. So we are right before a bar exam date. Matt is in Alaska on a cruise ship, and I did something and broke the entire course. I mean, just, it just went off complete. And I'm panicked. Right? So I, I send a message. Matt gets his email, I don't know, like twice a day on the ship or something.

He's like, oh my God, what are you doing? And he starts trying to fix this with, I guess you have wifi for like 20 minutes every hour. And we're like, oh my God, this is bad. We have just, we have just totally, the

Matt Chapman: irony of this whole story was since I was on vacation and only had. Um, with wifi, right? I, I didn't have, um, my, well, it was going to be an over lab, but [00:19:00] I didn't have my key for that service.

And also at the same time, the problem with that is even if I have the key at the time, there weren't very many apps that you could do, um, like SSH into your server, your UC two instance to, to fix things. And I, this would require me getting on the backend to fix it. So I had to go to my secret now. Online to grab the key, but then I was like, how do I get this Katy even work?

Because it's, you know, it's an iPad. So I found a program that allowed me to import the key, which is still around. I still have it because I use it all the time, but import the key so that I could get in. But that was the part that took me the longest. I was like, I knew once I got in, I could fix it, but I was like really worried that like, how do I get in from where I am?

I even went to the country. That they had on the ship. And then they were like, no, it's very limited access. And I'm like, so I can check my email, but I can't SSH because no.


Jackson Mumey: meanwhile, I'm sweating bullets, right? I've got thousands of students who are freaked out because they can't [00:20:00] get in to get their course.

We get it fixed. I mean, Matt fixes it, you know, fortunately after a few days, but that was. Aha moment for me when I realized that we had made it too complicated, it was too idiosyncratic and it had been done because we have been building, instead of starting from scratch, we were just repairing and replacing and fixing and adding and implementing.

And we were still state-of-the-art. There was, there was nobody out there with a better online course experience than we're offering, but I just was convinced it wasn't good enough and it wasn't stable enough. Um, because there were just too many moving parts. And really literally when you're using best-in-class software from 10 different vendors, so there's lead pages and there's Ontraport and there's, uh, you know, Sam card and there's this, and there's this, and there's this, any one of those changes their API.

They changed something and it all blows up and then you've got a problem and then WordPress change of something and it got worse and worse. [00:21:00] I was looking for another solution, which is sort of my normal mode. And I came across, uh, I've been using an e-commerce platform called SamCart and I really like Sam card.

I mean, it's simplified the entire process of how you purchased it. At one point, I remember we had woo commerce built in and we did, you know, you purchased. Literally hundreds of hundreds of products and iterations, uh, in our course. And so it just got out of control with WooCommerce. We couldn't manage.

And the,

Matt Chapman: and the in-between was, we used WooCommerce for the purchase, and then we did SamCart for the purchase, but we used wishlist member on WordPress to handle the group memberships, which that work that you're pointing again, the problem you run into with WordPress is it. I mean, it's a good and a bad, right?

Cause you can have all the plugins, but sometimes there's plugins interacts. If you've got a whole bunch of stuff running on there, then you end up with a possible issue with one breaks the other and then nothing

Jackson Mumey: and works. And that, and that's kind of where we were. And we're always in [00:22:00] this limbo where we were a little nervous about what might break and we get these surgeons of business because it's a seasonal business.

Sam card had have been a really good solution that I migrated from WooCommerce with Matt's help. And we started creating, uh, all of these platforms or, or carts in SamCart. And then to my other surprise, um, about, I don't know, seven or eight months ago, uh, Brian and Scott Moran and the guys that own same.

I said, we're going to do something really crazy. We're going to create a course platform and it's going to be able, you can put video and audio and PDF and, and just do all these great things. And here's the amazing part. We're not going to charge you extra for that platform. And my jaw just dropped. I mean, literally because up until that point, every course platform, whether it was Kajabi or think Rivek, or, uh, you know, I don't know.

It's just many, there are many all incredibly [00:23:00] expensive, particularly when you had the amount of video and content that we have. So SamCart comes along with this and I just went crazy and we started working and started creating, uh, the course. And actually, can I share a screen? Would we do that? And I want to just show you the website.

Okay. Yeah, but I I'll, I'll go. Right. Um, okay. So let me go back here to where we are. All right. I'm going to try and share this. Let's see. And, uh, no to let's go. Yeah, let's go here. You're going to want to edit this part out while I try and figure out what page I want to be on. But I think where I want to be.


So what we did was to create. Uh, [00:24:00] of course platform that allowed our students to see everything all at once. All the videos are embedded, we could put in links and buttons for people to order things. Uh, we had all of our downloads right here and all they had to do was go from one lesson to the next lesson to the next.

And it was an amazing opportunity, uh, to just let our, our students, uh, get in and see what they were doing. And it suddenly just change the. Uh, what we were doing and the way our students could access this. But the beauty part was we then went to Vimeo, as you see for our videos instead of YouTube. And we made them private videos so that they couldn't download them from.

But everything was here. And that was a huge, huge opportunity for us to, uh, change the way that our course was delivered to students so easily. They just went next lesson, next lesson, the next lesson. And they could go through and you can see there's just a ton of material. And this is just for one [00:25:00] state.

So this is how we, we did all of this and, uh, uh, pretty excited about it, literally a great way to be able to offer the work. So, uh, that was. That was what we did.

Matt Chapman: And you're still using, you're still using stuff like, um, when you were using Facebook groups and things like that, but yeah, you have several, like, um, I'll say platforms to pull in customers and also to keep current customers kind of motivated and going forward.

I love seeing the little advertisements with. Quotes like, uh, encouraging quotes cause passing the bar is no easy task. So, you know, and we're focused

Jackson Mumey: primarily on repeat mark taker. So we're really talking to the people who are most at risk. So we do that on Facebook. We do Google search of course, but we also try to make our, our, um, our course website really just work that way as well.

And if I can share that screen, I'll [00:26:00] just tell you what that looks like. Uh, Matt actually designed this, uh, page for us and. It's been through a lot of iterations, but, um, yeah. Um, but hearings, it's just a real simple page. Um, we're talking about our prep for a Peter's Sergeant scrolling down to faster. Um, and we've got all of our links right here, so it's really easy, uh, for, uh, people to get in, find out there's just a video in there and I get in touch and then, um, you know, assuming.

Uh, spark that's my daughter there she's our lead mentor after 10 years. That's when Matt was talking about the side of our lap back in the days. Um, and we've got testimonials, so it's all right there. And then if a student wants to, uh, add information about the course, uh, we've got some interactive videos that we've created to help them do that.

Um, and so it's, it's all. Right in to the course. So that's a [00:27:00] nice way to be able to, uh, get people in and get them the information they need. See the testimonials from the students that, um, they are interested in. We also do a podcast, as I said, and we have webinars. So there's lots of ways that people can get information from us.

And then they can go right in, um, in the, in the way that the site was designed and they can, um, jump in and order their. And, and be with us, uh, pretty, pretty easily. So it's a, it's a pretty simple, uh, approach, but we find that it, uh, it works well.

Matt Chapman: So celebration bar review.com.

Jackson Mumey: Yeah. So, you know, we've, we've tried to innovate in the way that we do check because we think that being, uh, for a non-traditional student, which is who we talk to, they need to be able to study at two in the morning.

They need to have instant access to materials. They need to get out the materials that they need when they need. And they also need to know that there's enough of a human touch behind it. And I think that's really [00:28:00] what we've tried to be moved, moving towards over all these years. And every iteration that we've done has been getting us closer to that ideal.

Um, we do video coaching, so we're, we're doing zoom calls with students, they register and set them up, uh, you know, They were talking to us. Um, and then we record them and give them back to them. Uh, so there's, there's just a ton of options open for our students. And that's the approach that we've taken. So we couldn't have done it without you, Matt.

We can't do it each day without you. Um, I'm, I'm proud of what we've accomplished and what we continue to do and innovate and the way we help our students. But the technology is really the backbone of everything.

Matt Chapman: I also found it very interesting early on that it wasn't always just. The course content. It was also your personal touches that you had with the actual mentoring calls.

That was a big, big differentiator for you compared to competitors. And also you did other things that were kind of like, not just, what's going to be on the [00:29:00] test to look for how to write for the exam. I should just go take mine. You also did things that were very mentoring, like, you know, where it's like, this is like photo reading and things like that.

Like how to read better, how to understand what you're reading faster. Um, those things were huge differentiators for you early on. I mean, it's funny, you know, I, I look at my kids now and they're like, well, can I get on tick, tick talk? And can I do this? And I want to do this now. I want to be a content creator.

And I'm like, you know, it's, it's funny that you make fun of me as being the old man of the house. We've been content creators for a couple of decades. Wait, wait more things. So even before there was a Facebook.

Jackson Mumey: Yeah. So the things for your audience to understand is that the relationship that you and I have had over these 25 years has been as collaborators.

It is rarely, um, uh, you know, it is not, uh, a customer and a vendor. It's never been that. Um, as often as. Matt has come to me and said, I've seen something like Riverside [00:30:00] and I love it. And, you know, look at it or check this out, or look at this or think about this. And Magnum's often been the person moving me to the next level in something.

And then when I find something, I say, look, I came across this thing, how are we going to make this work? And Mack got involved with our Sam cart, uh, courses and, and, you know, help SamCart, frankly, cause they didn't know some of the things that we. And when you got that collaborative relationship, when you trust the person that's doing it, not just in the narrow silo of it, but in the broader context of what you're doing as a business is a huge difference.

I I've said many times Matt could take the bar exam today and pass no question in my mind. He knows enough law. He's, he's been around this thing.

She did using our materials. So it really, so it's, it's, it's amazing what can be done. Right. But I think that when you have this collaborative relationship, [00:31:00] what happens is that it really has a exponential effect. Our business has grown enormously over 25 years. It's grown because we had an idea. We could never have executed that idea.

And even if we could, we would have still been stuck back along. Without maths involvement and cooperation and guidance. And so I would say to anyone that's listening or watching, if you're on my side of the table as a, uh, a customer, you really need to rethink your relationship to it and to your vendors, it's more than just, uh, digits and, uh, security and plugins.

It's really. Getting those individuals to understand your core values and your philosophy and what you're trying to accomplish. It feels frankly there's way too much out there for anybody to see or understand or figure out these days. And the more eyes you have looking at it and on it, the better off I think you're going to be.

And that has proven to be the, um, I think one of the real keys to our success at [00:32:00] celebration bar review. So thank you for that, Matt. I, I appreciate

Matt Chapman: it. Well, this has been fun. It took up half an hour of your day to day and, uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't just, I'm not plugging Riverside. I don't have any advertising.

Hint hint, but I do, um, as first episode, but the, this platform seems really nice, really smooth, and the layout is really great. So this has been quite easy just to get going from, so, yeah.

Jackson Mumey: Well, good luck with your podcast. We're up to episode 385 of the extra mile. Uh, you can find us on Amazon. Apple Spotify, uh, you know, everybody, um, and we love doing the podcast.

I mean, they, you know, it's an incredible opportunity to speak to people, um, both in video and audio. And so, um, I'm confident that you will have a huge audience very quickly map. You'll surpass our audience to be sure. Uh, we're a little bit, a little bit nichey, you know, uh, you know, uh, [00:33:00] I think it's. It's a great tool, a great resource, and so excited to be here and proud to be a part of your, uh, launch of this new cybersecurity podcast.

Matt Chapman: appreciate it so much. Jackson, thank you for joining me today and we'll talk later. Thanks man. All right.

Jackson Mumey: Okay. .